Karl Vaters (Author of "Small Church Essentials") is a current voice, speaking wisely to pastors of small (aka "normal") churches. Since a very, very large percentage of churches fall into this category, it stands to reason that the pastors of such churches are normal pastors. It's not at all unusual to be a normal pastor of a normal sized church. The challenge is to be the best kind of church that Jesus can make the church to be. And the best kind of pastor. Karl Vaters has helped the cause of the kingdom of God greatly with his three books: The Grasshopper Myth: Big Churches, Small Churches and the Small Thinking that Divides Us, Small Church Essentials: Field-Tested Principles for Leading a Healthy Congregation of Under 250, and 100 Days to a Healthier Church: A Step-By-Step Guide for Pastors and Leadership Teams. Show host Bill Holdridge interviews Karl, with a helpful focus for pastors re: how to navigate the current Covid-19 crisis and beyond.

Pastor Alan Stoddard wrote his doctoral thesis for Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary on the subject of sermon based small groups. That thesis eventually became a book, entitled Groups that Revitalize: Bringing New Life to Your Church through Sermon-Based Small Groups, co-authored with Kenneth Priest. Alan is passionate about the amazing discipleship opportunities doing sermon based small groups provides for any church ... especially for churches that are committed to expositional Bible teaching. This podcast presents the case for sermon based groups, as an effective way to kill several birds with one stone. Biblical fellowship can be a result, along with a much deeper dive into Sunday's teaching. This will enliven the Sunday morning pulpit experience, giving it an even greater sense of purpose in the heart of the pastor-teacher. Alan is also passionate about church revitalization. Sermon based small groups can play a major role in that happening as well.

Pastor Craig Hall may live in a smallish sized town. He may have a normal sized congregation. But he is doing a great work, and is a fine pastor who loves his flock and community dearly. In this episode, Craig tells a bit of his story in ministry, as well as some exciting arenas of outreach in the community of Fortuna. If you've ever lived or pastored in a community that's on the small side, then listen in. Lots of encouragement contained in this program.

Pastor Ken Merrihew is the founding and longtime pastor of Calvary Chapel Oklahoma City. He is a leader, a friend to pastors, and a source of godly wisdom to his peers in ministry. In this podcast, Pastor Ken shares with us his thoughts about the advantages and strengths of a small (or normal) sized church. This is necessary encouragement for the majority of pastors serving in the U.S. today.

In episode 116 we’re joined by Roger Ulman, senior/lead pastor of Calvary Chapel Kalamazoo Valley, Michigan. Roger planted the church in 2000, after an interesting and God-ordained training process. This testimony is included in this interview. Roger is married to Lisa, his wife of 37 years. They have three children … two boys and a girl. #10 grandchild on the way. Roger Ulman is a pastor who is genuinely joyful, and very optimistic about ministry and life in general. Pastors always can use optimism and encouragement … these are very challenging times for pastors everywhere. So, where does such a positive outlook comes from? This could me a major key re: how we pastors serve the Lord Jesus and His people. Tune in to hear the not-so-secret secret of Divine Optimism in Pastoral Ministry.

Ministry may not have to be as hard as we pastors make it sometimes. Marc Knutson shares with us some of what he has learned over the years, and what he learned from Pastor Chuck Smith up close and personal, about flowing with the Holy Spirit in the ministry. The Holy Spirit has a mind and will—and His mind and will are in complete cooperation with that of the Father and the Son. Host Bill Holdridge joins Marc in this encouraging conversation.

You may have heard this phrase, or even used it in a message: “I’d rather burn out than rust out!” Let’s be honest, many of us have worn that phrase as a badge of honor, as though it’s an honorable thing to burn out for God. Today, that phrase is a painful one … far too many of our brothers-in-arms have opted out of ministry (“I’m done, this isn’t what I signed up for!”), or have given up on ministry (due to discouragement or stress), or have been chased out of ministry due to their choices (ethical or moral failure. A recent Barna Group study found that 38% of pastors are seriously considering leaving full-time ministry. We see this trend as tragic, and as being part of much greater problems in today’s church. There are the expectations that people put on their pastors — and that pastors put on themselves … these can be debilitating. “Everywhere pastors go they are expected to be ‘on’ — ready to give stellar leadership, unending compassion, an inspiring message, anointed prayer, and words of encouragement.” Are there only two options? Is burnout in the ministry and in the life of a minister inevitable? And, if I don’t experience burnout, does that mean that I’m rusting out? The answer is “no.” There are not only two options. There is a third option, which is to learn a life lived under grace, with the right pace, and for the correct race. In this episode, we’re going to talking about the life-giving counsel of a book we’ve all read … written out of the true story of the author, Wayne Cordeiro. The book is entitled Leading on Empty: Refilling Your Tank and Renewing Your Passion. Two wonderful pastor-friends-teammates of mine will be helping me in this conversation … Trip Kimball and Terry McNabb. Trip is a long-time pastor-teacher, author, equipper, and discipler; Terry is also a long-time pastor-teacher, musician, and leadership coach. Terry and Trip have both been on our team of Poimen Ministries pastors, for years. You can learn more about them on our ministry website. to Trip and Terry: "Welcome to the program. I just finished reading Cordeiro’s book. I’ve had it on my bookshelf for a couple of years. I’m so blessed by what Wayne Cordeiro has written. I wish I’d have had (and looked for) a resource like this when I started my ministry back in 1976. It taught me things, reminded me of other things, and motivated my in areas of my own life as well. So, we’re gonna get into it, each of us. And this will explain why we’re recommending reading it."

Pastor Patrick Farrell shares his testimony regarding a radical and defining moment in his church leadership that allowed the Holy Spirit to rejuvenate, reorganize and resurrect new life into his church. BELOW ARE THE SHOW NOTES AND ARTICLES DISCUSSED: Calvary Chapel Wichita, Kansas Paradigm Shift: Equipping the Next Gen By Patrick Farrell, Senior Pastor Article A Several years ago, I was talking to a pastor friend about prophecy. That’s not unusual for me. I came to Christ through the study of prophecy, and to this day I love to talk prophecy and I love to teach prophecy. So much so that for years I eagerly assembled an annual “prophecy update” and every two or three years turned it into a whole conference. That particular conversation, however, changed my entire perspective not only on biblical prophecy, but on ministry. “Has it ever occurred to you,” my friend asked, “That every generation of the church was convinced it could be the last? And they believed that for good reasons? Have you ever considered that for 2000 years believers have scrutinized the “signs of the times” and concluded the return of Christ was imminent?” I can’t recall exactly what I said in response, but I remember that it was flip. Knowing me, I probably said something to the effect of: “Duh. That’s why they call it the doctrine of imminence.” We went on to talk about other things, but days later I found myself still pondering the implications of my friend’s observation. For centuries (!) believers who had not seen the return of Israel, who could not realistically envision a global government, and who could not fathom “mark of the Beast” technology, still prayed “Maranatha” in full expectation that God might answer that day. And for centuries, Jesus has tarried. “What if…” a voice whispered in my head. “What if Jesus continues to tarry?” At first, the idea seemed laughable. How could He? I reminded myself of all the indications that the book of Revelation must be right around the corner. Geopolitical, financial, technological, cultural, spiritual — it all lined up. Surely Christians of our generation would be the ones that finally saw the return of Christ. But over the next few days the thought that began as a whisper grew louder and louder in my mind: “What if we’re not?” Unable to escape the question, I was soon unable to avoid the answer: I was doing ministry wrong. I was doing all the right things — or at least most of them. I was teaching the Word, sharing the gospel, making disciples, loving the people. And I was “equipping the saints for the work of the ministry.” My friend’s question, though, brought me to the disappointing realization that along the way I’d amended Paul’s words to the Ephesians. Yes, I was equipping the saints for the work of the ministry. But I was equipping them just in case Jesus didn’t return in the next few years. My teaching of prophecy had passion and urgency. Jesus was coming SOON. Getting that message out, in my mind, was of utmost priority. Training young people for ministry was a secondary consideration. I was approaching it casually. While I never explicitly thought of it that way, it was essentially a back-up plan. And it needed to not be. We don’t know when Jesus is coming back. We have good reason to believe it might be any day — or even today! But so has every believer since Pentecost, and yet the church is still here. We need to not let our excitement over prophecy blind us to the very real possibility that the church will still be in ten years. Or twenty. Or forty. Or longer. And if the church does remain, it deserves to be prepared for the ministry that’s waiting. More than that, it deserves to be prepared passionately, rigorously, and lovingly — not half-heartedly. It deserves to be prepared as intentionally as my generation was. The way that every generation was. Even as they awaited the soon return of Christ. Article B A pastor friend refers to Calvary Wichita as “a ministry training program disguised as a church.” I find that description somewhat redundant. Aren’t all fellowships supposed to equipping the saints for the work of the ministry (Eph 4:12)? And yet for many years, ours wasn’t. Week over week the same faithful faces would serve in the same familiar places. The ushers, the nursery workers, the worship team — they were all loving, all gifted, all beyond reliable. Except that towering strength had become a significant weakness: because our servants were so dependable, and had been so reliable for so long, leaders saw little incentive to train anyone else. Eight years ago, however, several events conspired to catalyze a transition. The most significant was the “retirement” of several long-serving brothers and sisters. Some were contending with health issues, others felt led to spend more time with grandchildren and great-grandchildren, others were moving out of state. The common denominator, though, was after literally decades of faithful ministry, (including two difficult pastoral transitions) we had a generation of servants ready to pass the baton. In speaking with those stepping down, however, I discovered something both surprising and disturbing: every single one indicated they would have preferred to step down sooner. They’d been hanging on, for the most part, because “there wasn’t anyone else to do the job.” CS Lewis said that when a whisper doesn’t work, God uses a megaphone. God was shouting at us that something needed to change. A few weeks later we held an “all hands” servants meeting with a very simple four-point agenda. Point #1 – effectively immediately, everyone was “fired.” No one was a pastor, no one was an elder, no one was an overseer, no one was a servant. We were all brothers and sisters in Christ, nothing more. Point #2 – effectively immediately, all ministry roles were to be considered open and available. No matter who had been serving where or how well or for how long, everything was up for grabs. The 30-year veteran of the nursery was welcome to pray about serving on the worship team; the brand-new church member was welcome to pray about serving in the nursery. Or the worship team. Or wherever. Point #3 – I’d be scheduling meetings with everyone over the next three weeks to talk and pray with people about where they felt the Lord was calling them. Point #4 — people were exhorted to seek the Lord’s direction for their ministry without concern for where they were needed or what ministries would be left uncovered. The results were amazing. To be sure, the first response for many was shock. Even the elders who helped plan the meeting admitted later they didn’t expect we’d actually go through with it. Once people understood the heart behind the message, however, they took it seriously and took it to the Lord in prayer. A month later, we had two board members step down, an elder relinquish his ministry, three overseers hand over responsibility, and at least a dozen people change ministries. Some were reluctant, and yet convinced that God was leading them to a transition. Some were excited that God had answered their prayers to open new doors. Many were relieved to know that they “had permission” to pray about a new direction. Not surprisingly, after we’d rearranged roles and responsibilities according to God’s leading, some significant holes remained. Looking back, it was at that point our internship program was born. We’d had interns in the past, but observing the gaps in our org chart and recognizing the reason for them, it was clear a more substantial initiative was required. We needed to do more the “fill the gaps” — we needed a sustainable plan. After much prayer, we devoted a Sunday morning service to clarifying a new vision for our fellowship. Our mission would remain to “win, build, and send” disciples for Jesus Christ. But in pursuit of that mission, Calvary Wichita would begin to prioritize discipleship of the “next generation” of ministry-minded men and women. We would, in effect, become a “teaching hospital.” While every church is (or should be) a “hospital for sinners,” those coming to our hospital would be told to expect students and interns to be the front line of care. The pastors and elders would be the “attending physicians” supervising their ministry – all under the headship of the Great Physician. The transitions weren’t always seamless. While many of our “senior saints” were excited about the transition, some were confused and one or two were resentful. For a time, the extraordinary time and attention devoted to one demographic left others feeling neglected (and objectively they probably were). Predictably, we also needed to contend with pride and accusations of pride. Satan is a liar and a thief, and for a time it seemed we were a prime target for his antics as confusion and frustration seemed to spring up out of nowhere. Yet through it all, the Lord was faithful: faithful to guide, faithful to provide wisdom, faithful to supply grace, faithful to reassure us we were on the right track. Today, the day-to-day leadership of our fellowship is largely in the hands of our interns. We currently have eight, but the number varies. True to our mission, we have sent out many men and women to assume leadership roles in other churches and parachurch organizations. As we do, the Lord raises up others to take their place. We don’t have a consistent structure for our internships — we’re a small enough fellowship we have the luxury of praying through an individualized path for each of them to learn, lead, make mistakes, and grow in grace. We also have a stable enough cadre of elders that I can devote a substantial portion of my week to mentoring this crazy band of leaders-in-training, knowing other mature eyes are helping oversee the big picture. Year over year the character of the group changes, and their responsibilities change accordingly. Year over year, our fellowship extends grace, knowing this is ministry the Lord has called ALL of us to. Like a lot of ministries, sometimes we’re not sure how it’s going to all work out. Like a lot of ministries, sometimes we’re absolutely sure it won’t. Like everything the Lord calls us to, it always does! Article C Calling what we do at CCW an “intern program” might be an overstatement. We don’t have a formal program so much as we have a collection of interns — usually seven or so at any given time — that the Lord has called our fellowship to support and equip for ministry. And we didn’t begin with any particular design or structure in mind. We just observed we had a generation of leaders ready to start handing over responsibility, and prayed about how to respond. After nine years, though, we can look back and see how the Lord has worked. Roughly half the thirty-plus men and women who have spent time interning with us are currently serving in leadership roles in their respective churches, including one senior pastor, three assistant pastors, five youth pastors, two church planters, two worship leaders, a high school teacher, and a staff member at a parachurch organization. Many others are living out God’s call as parents and as missionaries in their respective vocations. How do we do what we do? The most honest answer might be: “Never the same way twice.” God seems to constantly be reinventing what we do based on the season our fellowship is in and who our interns are at any given time. That said, I can try to point at a few consistent principles the Lord has led us to: START WITH YOUTH: Our internship program for ministry-minded “twenty-somethings” evolved out of our summer youth discipleship program built around ten weeks of full-time study and service at the church. It brings teens deeper into the greater church community, helps them catch a vision for ministry, and instills in many a true heart to serve. Roughly half our interns are “home grown” graduates from our youth program; another quarter are friends or Bible College classmates who hear about what we’re doing through them. EXPLAIN THE VISION: Seven years ago, we embraced a new ministry concept: we’re a teaching hospital. Every church is a “hospital for sinners” but we’re a hospital that’s also training practitioners. Much like a medical school that sends its students into ERs and ORs and ICUs to provide care under the supervision of attending physicians, we let our folks know up front that the first line of ministry at CCW will often be led by our interns under the oversight of a pastor or elder. COUNT THE COST: Equipping the next generation is an investment. We remind our fellowship of that often, because we’re collectively sharing that cost in many ways. We’re not only supporting interns through our tithes and offerings, we’re also forgoing other opportunities in order to do so. Several years ago, for example, we hit pause on a plan to expand our sanctuary and used the money to buy a small bungalow to house interns instead. We unpack these choices for the fellowship so they understand our interns are a community project that every one of us is a part of. REJOICE IN IMPERFECTION: Putting interns out on the front lines of ministry entails not only an investment of money but an investment of grace. Most of the time they will not teach as effectively, lead worship as powerfully, counsel as wisely, or organize as skillfully as more seasoned elders would. We don’t try to pretend that’s not true; instead, we try to rally around it and urge one another to “celebrate progress” rather than “expect perfection.” RECOGNIZE THE CHALLENGE: One of the most difficult things any of us do is watch someone perform a task slowly and awkwardly that we could do quickly and easily. But that’s exactly what mentoring interns requires. If we don’t let them do the thing we could do in a fraction of the time, they don’t learn. And if we don’t watch them, they might do things badly (and people might get hurt). EMBRACE DIFFERENCES: I come from a large church where I helped start and run a successful “School of Ministry.” We had classes, we had structure, we had a format for everything. CCW is less than 10% the size of my home church, and our internships have less than 10% of the consistency. We have paid interns and unpaid interns. We have full-time interns and part-time interns. Some interns are with us for a summer; some have been with us for years. Some of their discipleship happens in groups, but differences in schedule, gifting, calling, and maturity demand that a fair amount happen 1:1. Some of our interns love to read; others learn much better from audio or video presentations. For a long time we tried to resist these realities in the name of efficiency. Today we accept the inefficiency for the sake of higher quality. PURSUE BOTH BREADTH AND DEPTH: It’s tempting, especially in a small church like ours, to thrust people into the ministry that corresponds to their most conspicuous gifting: put the musician on the worship team, put the organizer in the office, put the “baby whisperer” in the nursery. It’s also tempting to do the opposite: don’t let people serve in their favorite ministry for the sake of learning and growth and (above all) humility! Our answer is a little of both: we strive to give interns the opportunity to refine existing gifting while also expecting them to explore new areas of ministry where they have interest and the church has need. What we don’t do is assign anything purely for the sake of cultivating humility. God, it turns out, is better at that than we are. BE INTENTIONAL ABOUT COMMUNITY: Fellowship within our group of interns usually happens organically. And that’s important — what our interns learn from each other is often as important or more important than what they learn from their pastors and mentors. But just as important is what our interns can learn from people who are neither peers nor mentors. We try to create opportunities for interns to know and serve and pray and live life alongside live life alongside young parents, seniors, singles, new believers, and everyone else that calls Calvary home. BUILD IN THE BASICS: If we’re not careful, in striving to create opportunities for community and ministry we might inadvertently encourage our interns to neglect devotional time and other essential spiritual disciplines. Instead, we lean hard in the opposite direction. We build time for daily prayer and worship into our full-time interns’ schedules, and we ask all interns to pursue accountability around their individual walks with the Lord. As much as we want to train up ministers, it’s more important we teach people to be zealous Christ-followers. PREPARE FOR HEARTBREAK: When we embarked on this intern journey, everyone was excited at the prospect of being a “Paul” to a “Timothy” or “Titus.” What we forgot was that Paul also had disciples like Demas (who abandoned him) and Alexander (who attacked him). Even Jesus — who did ministry perfectly — had both a Peter and a Judas. Mentoring interns has brought me to some of the highest mountains I’ve known as a pastor, but it’s also plunged me to some of the deepest valleys. Getting close enough to wash feet means getting close enough to be kicked, and it’s never going to be different until we get to heaven. DEBRIEF EVERYTHING: Most ministry is “caught” rather than “taught.” That said, we find our interns catch a whole lot more if we set aside structured time to discuss the ministry they are a part of as well as the ministry going on around them. We try to meet as a group after every event, at the end of each week of ministry, and at the close of each Sunday to discuss what happened, why it happened, what follow-up might be needed, how we can be praying, etc. More than anything else we do, these conversations help our interns understand the heart of our ministry. Looking back, the first ten bullet points above are really the product of the last one. It was in talking about and praying over our ministry that the Lord led us to make internships such a vital part of our fellowship’s DNA. And it’s been through discussion and prayer that the Lord has cultivated and refined the “best practices” outlined above. The two questions we ask continually — of each other and of the Lord — are simple: (1) What does love look like in this situation? (2) Who else needs to know what we’re discussing? When someone asks me how to start an internship program, I still don’t know. But what I tell people is to find the young people in your church who want to serve, find a place for them to serve, and start talking about those two questions with them every chance you get. You’ll be amazed at what the Lord will do!

Pastor Alan Stoddard wrote his doctoral thesis for Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary on the subject of sermon based small groups. That thesis eventually became a book, entitled Groups that Revitalize: Bringing New Life to Your Church through Sermon-Based Small Groups, co-authored with Kenneth Priest. Alan is passionate about the amazing discipleship opportunities doing sermon based small groups provides for any church ... especially for churches that are committed to expositional Bible teaching. He shares with us his discoveries and methods in truly making authentic disciples according to the bible. In today's podcast, we will find useful ideas and resources to reach people for eternity.

Pastor Cory Kilgus (Director at Calvary Bible Institute in Peru) shares how sensing, casting and implementing vision is crucial to the direction of any ministry. When vision is properly applied, dramatic and supernatural ministry takes place ... and Cory shares his personal testimony how this happened at his Bible College in Peru.